[osg-users] Closing of [e-mail], please subscribe to osg-users googlegroup

[Robert Osfield]

Hi All,

I have managed the osg-users mailing list for two decades with little
issues along the way, it mostly has just looked after itself. Alas today
is the last day as it's become an attack vector for bots to an extent that
it's swamping my support work. I'll be deleting the list later today, for
those that wish to continue with support please subscribe to the osg-users
google group:

https://groups.google.com/g/osg-users

This has become necessary as this year the osg-users and osg-submissions
lists have been under increasing target for nefarious bots that have been
attempting to subscribe a broad range of email addresses. It's now become
a deluge - I'm getting notifications of new attempts as I type this
message, and unfortunately there isn't any means I can find for mailman to
thwart this type of broad attack, so it's requiring an ever increasing
amount of manual work from me to clear the backlog of requests.

There's also no way for me to know whether an address is a genuine
subscription so unfortunately there may be rejection that has happened
because the subscriptions are swamped by dozens of fake ones, many which
are plausible addresses.

I'm a C++/OpenGL/Vulkan programmer playing wack a mole with bots trying to
abuse the community just isn't a good use of my time nor helpful for the
osg-users community. The osg-users google group doesn't look to be
affected by this attack vector so it'll be a far better place for us to
discuss OSG topics without the overhead of admin that the old mailman lists
now involve.

I have already deleted the osg-submissions list as it's no longer active -
github.com PR's have taken over for quite a while now.

I will leave the osg-uses mailing list up for the test of today. Then
delete it later today or tomorrow morning.

Thanks for your patience,
Robert.

[merspieler]

What about those who can't use the google mailing list?

Post by Robert Osfield
Hi All,
I have managed the osg-users mailing list for two decades with little
issues along the way, it mostly has just looked after itself. Alas today
is the last day as it's become an attack vector for bots to an extent that
it's swamping my support work. I'll be deleting the list later today, for
those that wish to continue with support please subscribe to the osg-users
https://groups.google.com/g/osg-users
This has become necessary as this year the osg-users and osg-submissions
lists have been under increasing target for nefarious bots that have been
attempting to subscribe a broad range of email addresses. It's now become
a deluge - I'm getting notifications of new attempts as I type this
message, and unfortunately there isn't any means I can find for mailman to
thwart this type of broad attack, so it's requiring an ever increasing
amount of manual work from me to clear the backlog of requests.
There's also no way for me to know whether an address is a genuine
subscription so unfortunately there may be rejection that has happened
because the subscriptions are swamped by dozens of fake ones, many which
are plausible addresses.
I'm a C++/OpenGL/Vulkan programmer playing wack a mole with bots trying to
abuse the community just isn't a good use of my time nor helpful for the
osg-users community. The osg-users google group doesn't look to be
affected by this attack vector so it'll be a far better place for us to
discuss OSG topics without the overhead of admin that the old mailman lists
now involve.
I have already deleted the osg-submissions list as it's no longer active -
github.com PR's have taken over for quite a while now.
I will leave the osg-uses mailing list up for the test of today. Then
delete it later today or tomorrow morning.
Thanks for your patience,
Robert.
_______________________________________________
osg-users mailing list
http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org

[Robert Osfield]

Post by merspieler
What about those who can't use the google mailing list?

I'm sorry I can't support folks for free on a platform that is requiring so
much of time to keep free of spam/misuse. I've supported this osg-users
mailing list for free for 20 years, unfortunately it's now become
impractical to continue support. I wouldn't be taking this step if it
hasn't become a serious issue at my end.

As for can't use a google group, could you explain what issues you have
with subscribing and using the google group? Perhaps others can help
suggest a way to use it.

Cheers,
Robert.

[Werner Modenbach]

Hi Robert,

you have my full understanding. It's a pity with bots, spam, hate etc. in the Internet.
On the other hand, it is almost impossible to escape the data octopus Google.
I refrain from using Google Mail, Office, Calendar, Addressbook and others.
 If you use it, you have to agree in taking your privacy into public.
By using Android it's not possible to uninstall useless Google apps and you have to allow
access to your addresses, calendars, messages and a lot more. You cannot get updates
without having a Google account.
I cannot even create a new fantasy account for the mailing lists because under the hood
they are all merged and form an overall knowledge about my personality. :-(

But sure, it's convenient - no question.

It is also clear you cannot fight against this Internet spam on your own lists. So sad ...

But the osg list was always an extremely valuable resource for my development and
the vsg list will be the same for me in future. So I have no choice.

- Werner -

Post by merspieler
What about those who can't use the google mailing list?
I'm sorry I can't support folks for free on a platform that is requiring so much of time to keep free of spam/misuse. I've supported this osg-users mailing list for free for 20
years, unfortunately it's now become impractical to continue support.  I wouldn't be taking this step if it hasn't become a serious issue at my end.
As for can't use a google group, could you explain what issues you have with subscribing and using the google group?  Perhaps others can help suggest a way to use it.
Cheers,
Robert.
_______________________________________________
osg-users mailing list
http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org

[Robert Osfield]

Hi Werner,

I am aware that google groups is far from ideal, falling back to at all is
really a sign of how poorly the developer world is served on the support
front. Hopefully, one day there will be robust and easy to use/support
alternatively for forum/mailing list support so we can migrate over.

In the case of the google group, it isn't limited to gmail addresses/google
account you can subscribe with any email address you want. Most of the
existing osg-users google group subscribed email addresses have nothing to
do with gmail.

Cheers,
Robert.

[merspieler]

Post by Robert Osfield

Post by merspieler
What about those who can't use the google mailing list?

I'm sorry I can't support folks for free on a platform that is requiring so
much of time to keep free of spam/misuse. I've supported this osg-users
mailing list for free for 20 years, unfortunately it's now become
impractical to continue support. I wouldn't be taking this step if it
hasn't become a serious issue at my end.

I totally understand the issue you're facing.

Post by Robert Osfield
As for can't use a google group, could you explain what issues you have
with subscribing and using the google group? Perhaps others can help
suggest a way to use it.

Following the link [1] I don't see a subscribe button.

[1] https://groups.google.com/g/osg-users

[Robert Osfield]

Post by merspieler
Following the link [1] I don't see a subscribe button.

Do you not see any "Join group" or "Sign in" option?

Could you check other groups to see if there is anything different.

As far as I can see all the options for new subscriptions are enabled.
Others have successfully subscribed this afternoon.

Cheers,
Robert.

[merspieler]

Post by Robert Osfield

Post by merspieler
Following the link [1] I don't see a subscribe button.

Do you not see any "Join group" or "Sign in" option?

I have to sign in? Then I'm out of luck...
I can't create an account either cause it asks
for a phone number which I don't have.

(and even if I'd have one, I certainly wouldn't want
to give that to one of the G-MAFIA cause...
https://twitter.com/UnderTheBreach/status/1378314424239460352
)

[Robert Osfield]

Post by merspieler
I have to sign in? Then I'm out of luck..

I asked what you could see on screen - whether you saw a join or sign in
button.

You don't need to sign in to use the googlegroup - you can simply use it as
a mailing list.

Also please remember, this is free support, I'm trying to help you and
others, for free, in my own free time.

[Robert Osfield]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Werner Modenbach]

Hi Robert,

I followed your suggestion by replacing "myid" by my mail address, which isn't registered for a Google account.
There was no error message and I was forwarded to the Login page.
But logging in with the mail address failed with the message: "Your Google account could not be found" (translated myself)

So I'll wait if just the login fails and I get messages from the list or if everything failed.

Will keep you informed.

- Werner -

There appears to be a perception that you can only join the osg-users group using a Google account.  This isn't correct, plenty of folk have already joined using non google email
addresses. 
    http://groups.google.com/group/osg-users/boxsubscribe?email=myid <http://groups.google.com/group/mojolicious/boxsubscribe?email=myid>
If you still are struggling to subscribe then I can manually add your email address.  Just email me directly and I can add you.
The trick of banning everyone from joining the old osg-users looks to have stopped the flood of dubious subscription requests so for now the immediate issue of me being
overwhelmed with support work is over, but it's just a short term hack as it bans everyone, including genuine requests.
Cheers,
Robert.
_______________________________________________
osg-users mailing list
http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org

[Robert Osfield]

Hi Wener,

On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 at 11:30, Werner Modenbach <

Post by Werner Modenbach
I followed your suggestion by replacing "myid" by my mail address, which
isn't registered for a Google account.

The link I provided earlier wasn't consistent, I copied and modified one I
found on the web and it looks like the actual link address didn't update
correctly. I think this should be the correct link:

http://groups.google.com/group/osg-users/boxsubscribe?email=myid

Post by Werner Modenbach
There was no error message and I was forwarded to the Login page.
But logging in with the mail address failed with the message: "Your Google
account could not be found" (translated myself)
So I'll wait if just the login fails and I get messages from the list or
if everything failed.

There is chance it was the wrong url.

Post by Werner Modenbach
Will keep you informed.

I haven't seen your email address on the new subscriptions list - I just
OK'd 4 new join requests, 3 were for gmail addresses, one from a non gmail
address so it should be possible.

I am sure joining a google group without gmail used to be more straight
forward so it does look like google have been trying to hide/exclude all
the obvious ways.

I will keep hunting for a good solution.

[Robert Osfield]

This might be of use:

https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/13508/how-can-i-subscribe-to-a-google-mailing-list-with-a-non-google-e-mail-address/15593#15593

Looks like you may be able to send a email to
*osg-users+***@googlegroups.com
<osg-users%***@googlegroups.com>* from the email account you want
to subscribe, then reply to the confirmation with a blank email, but don't
click on the confirmation link.

Failing that I can manually subscribe you.

[Robert Osfield]

Hi All,

I've approved a number of new subscription to the osg-users google group
today, most went through OK, but two requests failed when I clicked to
approach, groups.google reported the error message:

"1 request couldn't be approved
We're unable to send a notification to this person about the action you've
performed"

I don't know what the actual cause was - could be something as simple as an
invalid address being used. Unfortunately the entries disappeared with no
record for me to follow up on the addresses, so if your attempt has failed
let me know and provide details about what method you used for subscription.

Conversely, if you have successfully subscribed today with a non google
account let us know what method you use so that others can follow this same
approach.

Cheers,
Robert.

[Robert Osfield]

Hi All,

I have feedback that the email subscription route is working for non google
account users, so I have updated the introduction message for the osg-users
googlegroup. Could folks review what I've written and let me know if it's
clear, links look correct etc.

Thanks,
Robert

-- New welcome message:

Welcome to the OpenSceneGraph user/developer group, a place for discussion
about use of and development of the OpenSceneGraph
<http://www.openscenegraph.org>, the open source, C++, OpenGL cross
platform scene graph.

To join the list with a non google account send an empty email to:
osg-users+***@googlegroups.com,. When you receive a confirmation
email reply to it with another empty email rather than clicking confirm -
this avoid any google account you have being used.

[Rizzen]

Good day Robert,

The message is correct in how I joined this email subscription group
without using a Gmail address.

Is there an email subscription group for VSG?

Rizzen

Post by Robert Osfield
Hi All,
I have feedback that the email subscription route is working for non
google account users, so I have updated the introduction message for
the osg-users googlegroup.  Could folks review what I've written and
let me know if it's clear, links look correct etc.
Thanks,
Robert
Welcome to the OpenSceneGraph user/developer group, a place for
discussion about use of and development of the OpenSceneGraph
<http://www.openscenegraph.org>, the open source, C++, OpenGL cross
platform scene graph.
confirmation email reply to it with another empty email rather than
clicking confirm - this avoid any google account you have being used.*
*
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "OpenSceneGraph Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osg-users/CAFN7Y%2BUOaGedNZVaE3JfZxh1JE1%2BwDa3BcDhSmFY9F2XoTFO9A%40mail.gmail.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osg-users/CAFN7Y%2BUOaGedNZVaE3JfZxh1JE1%2BwDa3BcDhSmFY9F2XoTFO9A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Robert Osfield]

Post by Rizzen
The message is correct in how I joined this email subscription group
without using a Gmail address.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Post by Rizzen
Is there an email subscription group for VSG?

There's been a vsg-users google group for a couple of years, but no
instructions for how to subscribe without a google account. Now I've got
the confirmation that it works I've added the same instructions to
vsg-users:

https://groups.google.com/g/vsg-users

Seems like a perfect opportunity for folks to test that I updated the links
correctly :-)

[Werner Modenbach]

Hi Robert,

many thanks for this research. Works perfect :-)
I'm subscribed now on osg and vsg lists.

- Werner -

The message is correct in how I joined this email subscription group without using a Gmail address.
Thanks for the confirmation.
 
Is there an email subscription group for VSG?
There's been a vsg-users google group for a couple of years, but no instructions for how to subscribe without a google account.  Now I've got the confirmation that it works I've
    https://groups.google.com/g/vsg-users <https://groups.google.com/g/vsg-users>
Seems like a perfect opportunity for folks to test that I updated the links correctly :-)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenSceneGraph Users" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osg-users/CAFN7Y%2BUb40DmjOda8F7DUOGAL0fsFG7-UYSD_k2t3fe8E%3D5Wcw%40mail.gmail.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osg-users/CAFN7Y%2BUb40DmjOda8F7DUOGAL0fsFG7-UYSD_k2t3fe8E%3D5Wcw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
_______________________________________________
osg-users mailing list
http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org

[Robert Osfield]

Hi All,

It looks like the subscribe by email approach is working well for
non-Google users which is great news.

Unfortunately all it's not yet perfect, a few subscriptions are failing
when I attempt to confirm the pending request with the googlegroup server
reporting that it can't confirm the address. This seems to be happening
for a range of addresses, initially it looked random but now I've had two
separate subscription attempts from the same domain fail right after each
other with the same error so it's starting to look like some domains aren't
playing nice with the googlegroup server for some reason.

Three of the addresses were US gov domains - could that be a connection?

If your subscription has failed then please email me directly on
robert.osfield at gmail.com. I am hoping that I'll be able to just
subscribe to you directly. Knowing a pattern of which types of domain fail
could also help with figuring out a solution.

Cheers,
Robert.

[Robert Osfield]

Post by Robert Osfield
Unfortunately all it's not yet perfect, a few subscriptions are failing
when I attempt to confirm the pending request with the googlegroup server
reporting that it can't confirm the address. This seems to be happening
for a range of addresses, initially it looked random but now I've had two
separate subscription attempts from the same domain fail right after each
other with the same error so it's starting to look like some domains aren't
playing nice with the googlegroup server for some reason.

I just followed up directly with one of the subscription requests and they
did reply to the confirmation email, and checking the same address - it's
in the membership list. This suggests the googlegroup error that I got on
clicking to agree to subscription may not be a sign of complete failure.

I don't know what this means, hopefully it'll become clearer.

[Robert Osfield]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Robert Osfield]

I have come across a trick to ban all addresses except ones for a specified
domain, I've applied this, and will see if that fixes the deluge of
subscription requests. This will however reject all new subscription
attempts. At best it might provide a short term breather to give folks
more time to get subscribed to the osg-users google group.